In celebration of our fifth birthday here at TESOL Pop, we are revisiting and remastering episodes from the archives to make the audio clearer and easier to listen to. This episode is from our Season 1 archive which was recorded back in 2018 in Hong Kong.

In this episode, Teacher Trainer and Language Examiner Bryan reflects on his experience in finding LGBTQIA+ inclusive communities while travelling and teaching English all over the world over the last 15 years. While some things have changed since Laura and Eve recorded this interview, Bryan's story remains relevant today. We hope that sharing this remastered episode creates space for more teacher stories to be shared.

To listen along with closed captions, click on the video below or scroll down to view the transcript.

Transcript

Laura: TESOL Pop Season One Episode Two.

Remastered. Hi, it's Laura here as part of our five-year anniversary here at TESOL Pop, we're working back through the archives to remaster earlier episodes to make them clearer and easier to listen to.

This episode from season one focuses on finding plus inclusive communities as a travelling TESOL teacher. While some things have changed since we recorded this episode back in 2018 in Hong Kong. Bryan’s story and experiences still remain relevant to today.

Let's jump in to join the conversation where I asked Eve, why it is important that we discuss today's topic.

Eve: I think it's obviously a really important topic, but I think questions very rarely get asked and addressed in a public way. I think we wanted to interview somebody to find out about what it is like living and working in countries where LGBT is perhaps illegal or discriminated against.

Laura: So, to help us today with our questions, we have our special guest, Bryan.

Bryan: Hello.

Laura: Bryan, could you introduce yourself briefly and say where you’ve worked as a teacher and trainer?

Bryan: Yes, I've worked in Taiwan, Hong Kong and also Tunisia, and a bit in Europe as well, and in Dubai.

Eve: And so could you tell me a bit about the countries that you've lived in and that particular stance on LGBT?

Bryan: Well, technically, in Tunisia, there are organizations that are a little bit underground that do have a movement that do talk about LGBT issues. However, the country itself, the government doesn't recognize LGBTQ rights as to speak. And also, same-sex activity may lead to some legal troubles for some people.

Eve: And you also lived in Taiwan for a while, didn't you? Could you tell me a little bit about that?

Bryan: Yeah, Taiwan was probably a bit more liberal when it comes to LGBTQ, and recently, as you've seen, they've now legalized gay marriage. When I lived there in 2003, it was still a movement that was very much still happening, but it was a bit more open, I would say was a bit more similar to our Western counterparts. And again, people there were, you know, didn't necessarily discuss it, you know, in the workplace, but it still was known as where I feel maybe in some places and other parts of the world you may be a bit more discreet. And it's not as it's not a seen I would say.

Laura: Did you have any reservations before you went to places like Tunisia or even Taiwan back in the early noughties, going there as a member of the LGBT community and how that may affect your work or your quality of life there?

Bryan: Um, it's definitely something I thought of, but I didn't think it was my overall deciding factor. I think there's a lot of misconceptions about that. Well, if the government feels a particular way, that means the people obviously feel that way. And that wasn't necessarily the case in countries that were a bit more conservative. In fact, I found just as many open local people who got to know me became my friend and didn't take any issue with being gay, straight or bisexual.

Eve: So in countries where there is a lot of discrimination against LGBT, is there still a sense of community there?

Bryan: Well, that's an interesting question because I never felt like my life was in jeopardy where I lived. I would definitely not recommend going out and waving the rainbow flag in some bit more conservative countries, but fine. Fair enough. That would go almost for anything, though, because you'd have to get certain permits to protest and you have certain channels you have to go through. And it's not really I didn't feel that it was my right to say, this is what you should do with your country. I considered myself a guest if you meant if I had people around me that was supportive of me. Yeah. And we discuss issues and we talked about things. Did we talk about the problems in that particular place? Absolutely. Or the worries and concerns? Yeah.

So I never felt isolated where I felt like I didn't have a community around me. And of course, that can vary to country to country because, you know, you can't just lump countries into one because what's a particular problem in one country doesn't necessarily mean it's another.

Take the fact that in Tunisia women work in government and drive cars and drive by themselves. In Saudi Arabia, they did. They didn't at that time, and that's now just recently changed. But that was a problem in Saudi Arabia, not Tunisia.

And again, I feel that, you know, it kind of depends on where you live, what country you live in, and just automatically the people that you surround yourself with. But could you find any pro-LGBT events, for example?

Yes, but they were very much underground. You know, they were very much like, you know, passed along and they were held at people's homes or they were held at like a bar that we happened to know that was a bit more mixed. You know, in that the suspicion wasn't exactly we weren't seen, you know, if you will.

Eve: So talking about employers, did you ever feel like, you know, that your employers showed any prejudice against you or that being gay hindered your progress at work?

Bryan: I felt supported by the company I worked for. Well, the British Council has very strong workers’ rights, I would say, and very supportive of gay and lesbian couples. However, due to country laws, though, you may not be able to bring your partner to certain countries and that's not the fault of the council. That's just the country where they don't recognize gay marriage.

In fact, Hong Kong does not recognize gay marriage. So you're not even technically allowed to marry in Hong Kong. But even a country is, you know, international is Hong Kong. You know, LGBT rights, LGBTQ rights are also still developing here. You know, and with employers, though, like there's with some employers, they do have protection with other employers they don’t.

Eve: A bit of a personal question. Now, what about relationship prospects? Do you think that you could have found a long-lasting, satisfying relationship in North Africa if that is what you wanted to do?

Bryan: Well, I couldn't find one in the US. I couldn't find one in North Africa. I don't know if it was really the country itself. I think it's just me. But I have friends that have relationships in North Africa that have been together for a long time. Like I said, I don't think they advertise the relationship, but obviously their close friends and the family that's accepting of it know of their relationship and stuff, but it is on the down low. I do think you can find lasting relationships.

However, you do have to understand that it does come with a little more complication perhaps. You know, it's not always easy, but that could just be that could be anywhere in the world in some sense where people aren't necessarily comfortable with themselves. But I feel like personally, I feel like, you know, this may be true or not true. It's really subjective is that that I feel that there's more complications when someone isn't out to their family or…could potentially face legal problems, especially in maybe even stricter countries that really have a problem with that.

So again, it depends where you are. It depends on the government at that time. It also depends on that person, you know, and how comfortable they are.

Laura: For listeners, that may be of the LGBT+ community that are listening today, do you have any advice for them that you wish people had given me before you travelled to different countries and places?

Bryan: Yeah, I wish I had done a bit more research with like organizations and clubs and researching the laws regarding LGBTQ+ rights in those countries. Also, I was very fortunate that I worked for such a good organization as the British Council at that time because like I said, it was a very inclusive environment as far as like, you know, LGBTQ+ is concerned. And I had to research that myself.You know, I just happened to be fortunate.

So I would highly, highly suggest what type of organization you're working for, especially if they hold different principles and beliefs because there's a lot of different types of NGOs working out there, a lot of different types of missionaries that employ English teachers. You don't want to get into a position where perhaps you'd feel uncomfortable or, you know, that was kind of limiting self-expression. If that's a problem for you.

Laura: How would you recommend that they go about getting that information from companies? Is that just something that should be publicly available?

Bryan: It is usually like the British Council on their website. They have it publicly publicized and we do not discriminate against business. This doesn't send you know, it's actually quite available and it's something people like banks, for example, even if you're not like HSBC, Goldman Sachs, you know, they have very strong support of LGBTQ rights. So and it's very much advertised, as we've seenover the past year with the colored lions [in Hong Kong].

So perhaps a way of going about that would be to ask the employer about their anti-discriminatory policies and how they ensure that they operate an inclusive environment in that in their company or school or whatever it is. And there's all these organizations too, like even underground organizations that post information about LGBTQ rights all over the place.

Like when I thought about living in Ukraine, I definitely researched that, you know, because it was a, you know, it was, you know, definitely I was a little bit worried about that. And it was really well available through the Internet and through like finding gay bars and finding, you know, local places. You'd find a lot of information just on that through the local population.

And also just through like I said, your local gay bar tends to always have literature at the front door for it. So it's a good place to look.

Eve: Great, I think that's a really good practical advice and some tangible things that people can do if they are thinking of going to live or work in these countries. And so I'd just like to say thank you very much to Bryan.Thanks for coming in today to speak to us.

Laura: A big thank you to Haven Tsang for remastering this episode. To support the work we do at TESOL Pop, you can leave a rating and review wherever you listen to the podcast, or share today's episode with your teaching community or even buy us a coffee at ko-fi.com/tesolpop