S7E9: Teaching Teens Beyond Traditional Test Scores with Gregory Diehl

Author Gregory Diehl examines the challenges of teaching English for practical purposes versus test results. Gregory reflects on his experience and suggests how to engage and support teenage students in using English for authentic communication.

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Key talking points

✅ Realigning Teaching Goals: Gregory emphasizes connecting language learning to students' interests, not just test scores, for practical communication.

✅ Engaging Students: He advises making English relevant to students' lives to combat disinterest in language studies due to test-centric teaching.

✅ Navigating Word Usage: Discussion focuses on understanding emotional nuances in words, not just literal meanings.

✅ Overcoming Fear of Mistakes: Embracing errors as part of the learning process is highlighted to encourage communication without perfection pressure.

✅ Teaching Beyond Tests: Advocacy for personalised teaching methods within test-focused curricula to foster broader language appreciation.

Reference

Diehl, G. (2023) Our Global Lingua Franca: An Educator’s Guide to Spreading English Where EFL Doesn’t Work.

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To watch this episode with closed captions, click on the video below or scroll down to view the transcript.

Transcript

00:00:00:04 - 00:00:24:09
Laura
TESOL Pop. Season seven Episode nine. Hello and welcome to TESOL Pop the mini podcast for busy teachers. My name is Laura and joining me today to talk about teaching English for practical purposes instead of test results is author Gregory Diehl. Gregory has been travelling around the world since he was 18. He's visited more than 50 countries and taught and trained English teachers in more than ten.

00:00:24:11 - 00:00:53:05
Laura
He now lives in Armenia and writes books on personal and cultural developments. His newest book, Our Global Lingua Franca and Educators Guide to Spreading English, examines the persistent flaws he's observed around the world that prevent English learners from using the language in a functional way. In today's episode, we're going to talk about the challenges we often encounter when preparing students for exams, especially the high stakes exams that influence students careers and further studies.

00:00:53:07 - 00:01:13:08
Laura
We’ll reflect on our own teaching experience and Gregory's work in the book to highlight the negative wash back we've witnessed tests have on students motivation the use of their language and skills. And we're going to also share practical tips on how we can overcome these challenges. So, Gregory, you've obviously taught in many places you have a lot of experience in teaching.

00:01:13:08 - 00:01:18:00
Laura
What are some of the challenges you've noticed when teaching English in schools?

00:01:18:02 - 00:01:44:12
Gregory
Well, to answer that question, you really have to address what the goal with teaching is, what a satisfactory outcome would be, which is one of the first things I try to address in the book. If I define successful teaching as at minimum conversational fluency, the ability to at least broadly understand basic information being communicated for everyday purposes and communicate what you need to, even if it's not in a perfect optimised manner.

00:01:44:13 - 00:02:11:09
Gregory
Right. And even at that bare minimum requirement, I would say the vast majority of EFL fails completely. Even after years and years of enforced study, it seems fairly clear to me that the means commonly employed are incompatible with the desired ends. Because most people focus on things like test scores getting accepted into university. Memorising as many words as possible.

00:02:11:11 - 00:02:31:15
Laura
I thought in this episode we can explore some of those challenges. The negative wash back that we see from this test culture and this focus on learning, rote learning, we could say, like the list of lexis that you mentioned earlier. I have a few challenges in my pocket here to pitch to you, are you ready to explore them?

00:02:31:16 - 00:02:53:15
Laura
Okay, let's go for it. So challenge one. Some students are obviously not interested in studying English because of the strong focus on the test and learning to pass the test. I'm thinking about my teenage students that I've taught before. What can we do to engage and motivate these students to connect their learning to the greater, more practical ways in which they can use English beyond the exams?

00:02:53:17 - 00:03:14:13
Gregory
Right. Well, see, here's the problem with tests. In most conventional metrics. What organic reason does any child or teenager have to care about a test that a teacher is making them take? Probably none. Right. Maybe some overachieving nerds notwithstanding. But and I say that with love. I was an overachieving nerd.

00:03:14:19 - 00:03:18:01
Laura
Yeah, me too! I was like, that’s me!

00:03:18:03 - 00:03:41:07
Gregory
But in general, that's that's not an organic wants or desire or value that most any child or teenager is going to have. But they do have plenty of other organic wants and values. Your job as a good teacher no matter what you're teaching, but especially with language for reasons we can go into. You have to connect what you're teaching to things that learner actually cares about.

00:03:41:09 - 00:03:55:15
Gregory
You cannot force them to care about things. The most you can do is threaten to punish them. Like, you know, if you don't do a good job in this class, your parents will be mad at you and take away your video games or they'll never get into a good college and never get a good job, which terrifies a lot of people.

00:03:55:15 - 00:04:20:06
Gregory
In some cultures, it defines the whole culture. It's like this constant state of fear of not being socially accepted or successful that motivates almost everything they do. But all of us are born with things we actually care about inherent passions and values, and in a really esoteric or specialised subject like theoretical physics or something, it might be really difficult to find ways to to connect those two things every learner cares about.

00:04:20:06 - 00:04:42:14
Gregory
But with something like learning to communicate in the world's most common language, that creates an enormous amount of entertainment and education and media. It should be shockingly easy to find ways to connect that ability to things people care about. There has to be something you want to do in life that will be easier to do and better for you if you can speak English.

00:04:42:16 - 00:04:51:01
Gregory
That's your first job as a teacher. Show how you you learning this. Whatever your interests are, whatever path you see your life taking. This will benefit you in some way.

00:04:51:03 - 00:05:12:08
Laura
Let's move on to challenge number two. So number two, students sometimes use words that don't fit their speaking or writing, or use near synonyms, as they’re known. And this can lead to some very obscure examples which you explored in Chapter eight of your book. Actually, you gave some wonderful examples of misuse of words that students [may] assume are the same.

00:05:12:10 - 00:05:32:06
Laura
And I think this is really that wash back from learning lists of words or just going to a thesaurus and just picking another word to kind of embellish their speaking or writing and it can really be quite not a good fit and it can lead to communication breakdowns. I wondered what you thought of this situation and if you have any tips.

00:05:32:08 - 00:05:54:22
Gregory
Yeah, I give some examples of the book. One is like gutsy versus brave. They're near synonyms, but gutsy is actually a subset of brave. I would call bravery the parent category, and gutsy is a specific way of being brave that has like a casual, reckless kind of feel to it that just saying someone is brave doesn't. It's much more general term.

00:05:54:24 - 00:06:08:19
Gregory
And so there are definitely times where it would be more appropriate to say that someone's actions were gutsy instead of just brave. But if you don't know what those times are and you just arbitrarily decide, I'm going to call this person gutsy today, people are going to look at you a little bit funny, like, okay, is that the word you meant to say there?

00:06:08:19 - 00:06:36:06
Gregory
You know, they got a question. Do you actually understand the words are using? Because that was just a bit off. How do we fix that? That's that's the problem, right? Instead of just loading people with near synonyms and saying have fun with these, you have to not just transfer the specific semantic meaning of each term, but also find a way to to associate the same emotions and connotations that native speakers have with those words, even words that they don't often use themselves.

00:06:36:06 - 00:06:43:18
Gregory
At least when they hear them, they get a certain feeling that they wouldn't have gotten from a different term that means almost the same thing.

00:06:43:20 - 00:07:03:20
Laura
And looking at things in context really helps that, doesn't it? Like look at the connotations and the layers of meaning behind a word and helping learners infer that, right? Spending a bit more time and not just looking at sometimes these lists in the back of books and when I’ve been preparing for tests, have just literally been that have been lists words in isolation and not words in a context.

00:07:03:22 - 00:07:13:00
Laura
And without that context, it's really difficult for learners to and teachers to explore the those nuances that you mentioned.

00:07:13:02 - 00:07:40:02
Gregory
Yeah. And I don't know any better way or any other way to to communicate emotional association than just real world repeated use of these words. You can't teach that very well just by describing it like even the way I just described how gutsy is different than brave. That gives you an idea of the difference, but you're not really going to have the same intuitive, emotional reaction unless you have been exposed to these words in real context over and over again.

00:07:40:02 - 00:07:50:08
Gregory
And then you start to feel confident enough to say, well, this is the word that will best communicate the feeling that I want to get across, because it's not. It's the same feeling I now have when I hear other people use this word.

00:07:50:11 - 00:08:10:18
Laura
Well, we tackled number two. I think we good to keep going with number three. Are you ready for challenge number three? Students can sometimes focus on knowing the right answer, especially when it comes to cloze [gap fill] activities that we often encounter in books and tests. Often there's more than one right answer in the practical use of English. How do you approach this issue?

00:08:10:20 - 00:08:29:01
Gregory
Well, it's kind of related to the last question you just asked me. Often tests are set up in such a way where it's it's just multiple choice, like fill in the blank with with the right word here. And usually there's there's a word that they probably meant for you to use there, and it seems more likely that's the correct one.

00:08:29:01 - 00:08:47:24
Gregory
But just on a purely grammatical technically correct level, there's often more than one word you could use that would fit there. And again, it really just depends on how advanced of an English speaker you are and what you were intending to communicate. So I think that's a really bad way to test learners competence or even just to teach them like that.

00:08:48:00 - 00:09:08:19
Gregory
There's there's one definitive right answer to use here. Not that it depends on your ability to think in and speak English correctly. I mean, I get I get what they're going for. They're trying to say like, can you recognise that only an adjective could fit in this part of the sentence, right? There it makes sense just so that you at least understand the basic parts of speech and how they fit into English syntax.

00:09:08:21 - 00:09:20:18
Gregory
But that's often how they're assessing, like someone's entire English ability. Just did they fill in the right multiple choice question enough times? Okay, they're a good English speaker at that level C1 [advanced] now, that's what my test says.

00:09:20:20 - 00:09:41:07
Laura
For the final challenge this is connected to obviously knowing the right answer. And this sometimes causes a fear in students, a fear of making mistakes or a fear of losing face. And this can prevent them from even trying or even participating in speaking and writing activities. What would you suggest in this scenario?

00:09:41:09 - 00:10:14:17
Gregory
I would say that this problem you're describing is primarily a consequence of the test taking culture that you described, where there's just a good score or a bad score or a right answer or a wrong answer, and that doesn't really apply in real world communication. The goal of real world communication is to communicate an idea, something that you intend to get across, some kind of information or impression, and you can still do that even if your grammar isn't perfect, even if you're not using the exact right words that you should have or not saying it exactly the way someone else would have said it.

00:10:14:19 - 00:10:39:13
Gregory
I know this because I have travelled all over the world and there are a lot of languages I just kind of barely learned and could just say a few things in when I needed to. I live in Armenia now, in Eastern Europe. I've been here a few years and I still am fairly beginner in the language, mostly because it's really hard to get people to use the language with me, surprisingly, and really get that immersion process going.

00:10:39:15 - 00:10:56:01
Gregory
But I am also quite fearless in how I use the language. Whatever little bits I pick up by people interacting with me, the little bits they do in Armenian, I immediately put into use, I notice, that's the word they use when they want to say something like this. these, these words often go together. This is a common phrase people use.

00:10:56:02 - 00:11:12:10
Gregory
Okay, So I start copying it, not always perfectly, and I can see when I get something wrong, it's kind of a funny face. Like, that's not how we're supposed to see that. I say, okay, take note, don't say it that way anymore. And you know, I ask for clarification whenever possible, but I'm fearless about it because I'm not doing it to impress someone.

00:11:12:15 - 00:11:42:10
Gregory
I'm not doing it to get a good score on a test or, you know, any kind of social proof that I'm a great Armenian speaker. I'm entirely doing it because I need to communicate ideas to Armenians, some of whom don't speak English. So if I have no other choice and I need to communicate something to someone, I'm going to say it the best way I can, even if that means I have to stop and think about what I'm saying, or I have to phrase things in an awkward way or use simplified grammar because I don't know all the same grammar they do.

00:11:42:12 - 00:12:05:12
Gregory
That's the goal. Will they understand what I was intending to communicate? That's that's really the goal up until you reach the conversationally fluent level and then you might start to get more concerned about really, really specific communication. Right. And if I, I would certainly fail an Armenian test if you, if you gave me one yet, I can communicate 80% of what I need to in Armenian currently.

00:12:05:12 - 00:12:26:21
Gregory
And that's enough for me to live here in combination with the English that most people prefer to speak with me like that. That's an accomplishment, right? And I only get better by continuing to use what I know and and gradually expanding my vocabulary or noticing. I've been phrasing this the wrong way, especially when I find people actually willing to correct me and tell me what I'm doing something wrong.

00:12:27:02 - 00:12:31:17
Gregory
But they'll never have that opportunity if I don't at least try with them first. Right.

00:12:31:19 - 00:12:55:08
Laura
Exactly. I think as a teacher, it's really empowering for our students to see us also learning and adopting this approach to learning a language. So if you know, you were my teacher of of language and you shared your experience and how you're learning Armenian and how you're going about it and your experiences, I think that's that's such a great example and a role model for other students to follow.

00:12:55:08 - 00:13:24:16
Laura
That is, okay, you will make mistakes. That's part of learning, you know, engage and try. And that's the only way you'll get better and be comfortable with discomfort. There's a lot of ambiguity in learning a language and navigating your way through interactions, and that's okay. Are there any final tips that you'd like to share as we close this episode for teachers who are working with a test curricula and, you know, have encountered some of the challenges that you mentioned earlier today.

00:13:24:18 - 00:13:53:19
Gregory
The only real advice I could give is that, you know, if you're beholden to certain rules and regulations and curriculum that you have to teach because your job requires it or you'll get fired, then yeah, by all means, teach those. You kind of have your hands tied. But within that, there's usually a lot of room for flexibility and freedom and personalisation and the teachers who figure out how to do that as much as the system will allow for, tend to end up being the best and most memorable teachers.

00:13:53:21 - 00:14:11:09
Gregory
If you can think back to middle school or high school, do you remember all your teachers or do you remember probably just the one or two who are exceptional for some reason, who really made a difference in the way they taught something to you or treated you right? You can be that kind of teacher instead of just following the rules because you have to, because your job requires it.

00:14:11:11 - 00:14:17:24
Gregory
Find some way to make it more personally effective for every student you're able to do that with.

00:14:18:01 - 00:14:27:01
Laura
I think it's a really powerful message, too, to finish on. Gregory, thank you so much for your time and sharing your tips and your experience today. It's been really inspiring talking to you.

00:14:27:07 - 00:14:28:19
Gregory
Thanks.

00:14:28:21 - 00:14:55:02
Laura
So for Gregory's latest book, Global Lingua Franca: An Educators Guide to Spreading English Where EFL Doesn't Work. You can find that on Amazon and all major platforms. I'll include the link in the show notes for those. You can find that easily. Finally, you can support the work we do at TESOL Pop by leaving a rating and review wherever you listen to the podcast, by sharing today's episode with your teaching community, or by even buying a coffee at ko-fi.com/tesolpop

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